A Discussion On Using The Bible To Legitimize Homosexuality

Discussion:
          -Following are a series of excerpts with responses to them from a debate that veered far from the original topic of the article in which they were published. A number of points may prove to be useful in discussing the issue of whether the Bible endorses homosexuality:

          “What if some christians think that oppressing gay people is a great evil and others do not even see their harsh treatment of homosexuals as oppression?”

          That would be a matter of semantics in this culture. If by “oppressing gay people” you are referring to something genocidal in nature, then that would be a heinous crime.

          “What if, in these cases, all concerned are genuinely striving to follow God and they’ve just reached different conclusions?”

          If God has delineated something to be good or evil, then there is no other conclusion to reach than that which He told us.

          “Are those in sincere confusion and mistake going to be damned for their lack of understanding?”

          I suspect the problem is more willful than accidental for a lot of people.

          “As to 1 Cor 6, as I’m sure you know, Paul was writing to a specific place with some specific circumstances and throughout Corinthians, he is addressing some specific concerns they had, offering his advice.”

          Paul also gave moral imperatives for us to adhere to at all places and at all times. Morality pertains to that which is timeless and transcendent.

          “God has not delineated gay folks getting married as good or bad. Literally, that never has happened. Not in the Bible and not to you or me.”

          Go read of the Apostle Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. He says outright that people who practice such a lifestyle will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul would have drawn this teaching from the Book of Leviticus which is in the Old Testament.

          “But the word that is sometimes translated as “homosexual” (and the word translated as “soft” or “effeminate” sometimes) are not at all clear in the text or context. But in context, sometimes in that day and time, men would have young male prostitutes – boys who were forced to be the “soft” ones and abused by the men who were prostituting them. That’s the reality of Greco-Roman life at the time.”
          The text of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 refers to both the active and passive partners of a homosexual relationship. The Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, contains Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament which has this entry on the phrase “abusers of themselves with mankind”: 
           “733 arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy’-tace from 730 and 2845; a sodomite:–abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.”
           The section of this Study Bible titled Lexical Aids to the Old Testament has this entry on the meaning of the term sodomite:
          “6945 Qadesh; this adj. is derived from 6942. It means a consecrated one, a devoted one, a sacred person; a devotee to licentious idolatry, a cultic prostitute or priest of Astarte (1 Kgs. 22:46). It is ironic that such a “holy” word could be applied to abominable practices of male homosexuals dedicating themselves to the honor of a false god (Deut. 23:17; 1 Kgs. 14:24; 15:12; 2 Kgs. 23:7; Job 36:14)!”
          Consider also this excerpt from a Dictionary of the Bible: Comprising Its Antiquities, Biography, Geography, and Natural History, by William Smith:
          “Sodomites. This word does not denote the inhabitants of Sodom (except only in 2 Esd. vii. 36) or their descendants; but it is employed in the A.V. of the Old Testament for those who practised as a religious rite the abominable and unnatural vice from which the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah have derived their lasting infamy. It occurs in Deut. xxiii. 17; 1 K. xiv. 24; xv. 12; xxii. 46; 2 K. xxiii. 46; 2 K. xxiii. 7; and Job xxxvi. 14 (margin). The Hebrew word kadesh is said to be derived from a root kadash, which (strange as it may appear) means “pure,” and thence “holy.” “This dreadful ‘consecration,’ or rather desecration, was spread in different forms over Phoenicia, Syria, Phrygia, Assyria, Babylonia.”
           Consider this excerpt from the Archaeological Study Bible, Walter C. Kaiser Jr. and Duane Garrett general editors:
           “Evidence exists that even the Greeks may have been aware that this behavior was deviant. Aristophanes, the Greek comic poet, mocked homosexual behavior (even as he employed it as a comic device). For example, in Women at the Thesmophoria he ruthlessly ridiculed the notorious homosexuality of the poet Agathon. It would be an overstatement to claim that Aristophanes opposed homosexual practice, but his comedy betrayed an uneasy conscience about such behavior within the culture he inhabited. Plato, on the other hand, in his earlier dialogues spoke approvingly of homosexual behavior. Yet near the end of his career he observed in his Laws that homosexual intercourse was widely recognized to be unnatural.” (p. 1836)
           It should be clear to anyone that the Apostle Paul condemned homosexual relationships as such. He would have expressed disdain toward the idea of a same-sex marriage. That would have been totally repulsive to him. Paul would have viewed homosexuality as something practiced only by people who are wicked and detestable.
          “Why do those religious traditions get to speak for God what God hasn’t said? Isn’t that blasphemous? Why not?”

          Are you serious in taking up this kind of a sweeping skepticism toward the moral dimension of the Mosaic Law? What sort of textual critical evidence do you have to support this branding of moral imperatives from God as being nothing other than man-made oral tradition?

          “So, if there SEEMS to be some disagreement with Jesus and the OT or Jesus and Paul, we look FIRST to what Jesus said to help us understand the other, not the other way around.”

          This reasoning would be utterly inexcusable given that both Jesus and Paul held to Old Testament ethics. Jesus Christ upheld traditional marriage as defined by God since the timing of creation: “And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” (Matthew 19:4-5)

          “We have Saved by God’s Grace gay and lesbian and transgender members, beloved by God. The Bible does not say otherwise. Anywhere. It’s just not there.”

          The consistent pattern of marriage in the Bible from beginning to end is between a man and a woman. Never once is two partners of the same gender even hinted at. Never once are more than two genders spoken of.

          “I’ve been a student of the Bible for 50 years, now and believed that marriage for gay and lesbian folk for the first half of my life, but eventually had to abandon it because the Bible never condemns it, God nor Jesus never condemns it and Paul never condemns it.”

          Then I guess that you have been a rather poor student of Scripture during all those years. All that time has been invested into literal nothingness. That should be embarrassing to you.

          “But those all appear, on the face of them, to not be any kind of universal condemnation of gay guys getting married…”

          But God describes homosexual behavior in Leviticus 18:22 as being an “abomination” and “worthy of death” in Leviticus 20:13. That is indeed a universal condemnation of the practice. Consider this excerpt from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, edited by R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, and Bruce K. Waltke, on the Hebrew term toeba:

          “. . . the abomination may be of a physical, ritual or ethical nature and may be abhorred by God or man. Sharing a meal with a Hebrew was ritually offensive to an Egyptian (Gen 43:32), as was offering certain kinds of sacrifices (Ex 8:22). homosexuality and other perversions are repugnant to God and fall under his judgment (Lev 18:22–30; 20:13). Idolatry (Deut 7:25), human sacrifice (Deut 12:31), eating ritually unclean animals (Deut 14:3–8), sacrificing defective animals (Deut 17:1), conducting one’s business dishonestly (Deut 25:13–16), practicing ritual prostitution (I Kgs 14:23f.), and similar acts of disobedience (for seven more abominations, see the list in Prov 6:16–19) were sure to bring God’s wrath on those who perpetrated them. Twelve times the book of Proverbs uses the phrase, “is an abomination to the Lord.” In Ps 88, a prayer for help written by a man close to death, the physically repulsive appearance of a tôʿēbâ is stressed; the man’s former friends avoid him because they consider him to be a thing of horror (Ps 88:8 [H 9]).”
          The Jewish Study Bible has this excerpt on Leviticus 18:22:
          “Biblical and ancient Near Eastern culture was not familiar with homosexuality in the sense of a defined sexual orientation of lifestyle (the Bible gives no indication that David and Jonathon had a sexual relationship). It acknowledges only the occasional act of male anal intercourse, usually as an act of force associated with humiliation, revenge, or subjugation (for the biblical examples see Gen. 19.4-5; Judg. 19.22). Of the biblical collections only H mentions it (here and in 20.13), declaring it to be an abominable act and a capital offense. One possible explanation might be that H views certain sexual acts that are not potentially procreative as aberrant.”
          “(heck, lesbians aren’t mentioned at all in the OT, so presumably, it’s okay for THEM to get married, right?)”

          You take liberties by attempting to follow the strict letter of the text in a manner that is favorable toward your own theology. Your efforts to manipulate what it says is disingenuous and proves that you do not really care what Scripture says. How could you possibly be a Christian?

          The original audience to whom the Law was given would have understood Leviticus 18:22 to apply to lesbianism in principle. Furthermore, Paul expressly casts such relationships in a negative light in Romans 1:26-27. There is something especially unnatural about two women being together given that they have a motherly instinct.

          “I know there are a handful of passages that SEEM to touch on perhaps gay issues, but they are nothing like clear or definitive condemnations of gay folks getting married.”

          Even if there was only one passage in the entire Bible that implicitly showed God’s disapproval of homosexual marriage, that would be enough for a real Christian. That would still count as evidence.


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